Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Official announcements from Algoryx and the Algodoo team. Updates, official contests, news, etc.

Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby emilk » Fri Sep 23, 2011 1:46 pm

This is is a tough qeustion, but let me give you another angle at it: if we differentiate the education edition enough to make schools buy it over the normal edition, then we can focus the next dev cycle on the recreational market (you), adding "fun" features alongside educational ones.

If we do not differentiate the educational version enough, then new features in the a version will have to become education edition only.

We have no intention of making recreational users pay more for these features, it is just that we're trying to sell it to two different markets, and we need differentiation.

I'm happy to have an open dialog about this, and I'm certainly open for suggestions, but please try to see our point of view: we need differentiation between the products to allow a price difference. The only alternative is one product with a much higher price, and we don't want that.

Maybe we could have plots without some of the advanced features (.csv save, smoothing, dy/dx info etc)?
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Kilinich » Fri Sep 23, 2011 3:22 pm

As we suggested before - to get community back we need free version (at least "player") but I prefer just a lite version without any educational-specific features (better leave it but remove from interface so you can only use it from script).
And if you want create and public something - pay for that.
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby The Linkage » Fri Sep 23, 2011 10:21 pm

I agree with Kilinich. But why Algodoo 1.6.0 has the overdue?
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Kael » Sun Sep 25, 2011 2:59 am

Emil, please do this and since your reply i do understand why your removing it but i request that you do just give them to us with limited functionality
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Ivan » Sun Sep 25, 2011 5:27 pm

I also agree with Kilinich and think that a new Phun (or Algodoo player) would popularize Algodoo and increase the community.
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Banjerboef » Sun Sep 25, 2011 8:37 pm

Emil,

This is just unbelievable.

Schools need smartboard support, nothing more.
Home users don't need smartboard support, but do need the plot and show velocity functions.

You already have Phun, so you can make that the lite version that doesn't cost much.
You can have a normal Algodoo with the plot and show velocity's, but without smartboard support.
And you can have a teacher edition with all the functions and smartboard support.

It is a idiotic idea that new users have to buy the teacher edition in order to have plots and shown velocity's!

People aren't going to pay more for two extra functions!!!

If you really are going to put this plan in action, there will be less people interested in Algodoo.

Nobody is going to be interested in Algodoo anymore.

People like the plots and the visible velocity's, and if you remove them you are removing a characteristic piece of Algodoo that people like.

It's like removing the Ketchup from the Hot Dogs.
Ketchup must be on the Hot Dog, otherwise it isn't a Hot Dog.
If you ask the same price for a Hot Dog without Ketchup, nobody will buy it because it is incomplete.

Think twice about it.

A part of the students have problems with learning.
A graph and visible velocity's help them learn and understand things.

You don't want to lose these special customers, don't you!!!

As said on your website home users should also learn from Algodoo.
How can someone whom has trouble learning learn from Algodoo if it hasn't those features????


If you really want a cheap Algodoo version, make a little kids version for children aged from 3 - 10 years.
Because they don't need plots and visible velocity's.

O, wait a minute they do need those functions, because they learn from it!!!

Just like us, the normal users!!!


I am so angry!

People on the forum get a teachers licence upgrade and all the extra drivers (they don't need) with it.
The extra drivers aren't needed and only add extra stuff to their computers.

People don't want junk, they want the normal Algodoo!

Only the teachers are interested in those drivers.


I think when I say this that I am speaking for all of us:

Keep your hands of those functions!
Leave normal Algodoo as it is, with the plots and the show velocity's functions included!!!!
Only the teacher edition should have smartboard support!
But leave the normal Algodoo as it is.

Change something else, like Phun.
Make Phun your cheap Algodoo.

But leave Algodoo as it is!!!


Emil, all the people here want those functions to stay in the normal Algodoo!
Don't you see this!

In the Netherlands we say: the customer is king.
That means that the seller/developer (you) listens to it's customers.

If your customers want those functions, you should give them those functions!
If you don't, they won't buy Algodoo!

Do you understand this?

For example:
If I ask the Hot Dog seller for more ketchup and less mustard,
he will listen to me and do what I asked him to do.

If the Hot Dog seller did what I asked him,
I will be a happy customer and in the future I might buy another Hot Dog from him.
Because he adjusted his products to his customers whishes.

You should do the same!!!
You should also adjust your products to your customers whishes!


You listen to the ideas of people.
Like ideas for new functions or improvements.

Why don't you listen to us?
We are giving an improvement/idea!


Everybody is saying the same: keep those functions in Algodoo!

Why aren't you listening?


You are looking at it from to economical point of view, but you should look at it from your customers point of view!

We don't care about the different versions, we care about the functions of the program itself!

And if the functions of the program aren't the functions we (your customers) want, we will simply not buy Algodoo.


Another example:

If you are looking for a Quad-Core processor and the supplier only has Dual-Core processors.
You will go to a different supplier, because this one doesn't have the product you want.

It's the same with us!

If you don't have what we want, we will look for a different program.

In this case it will be Phun, because it is almost the same as Algodoo, but €25 cheaper!
It also doesn't have all the functions we want, but it is free.
And people accept the fact that they get less functions only if something is free.


And also if you are looking to this from the economical point of view, why don't you see that those functions aren't worth much.
You can't make Algodoo €5 cheaper by removing those functions.
Maybe a few cents cheaper.


Please Emil,
Listen to your customers!
Give them what they ask for, otherwise they will go away.

If all of us tells you the same, why aren't you listening?


If you are really going to decide to put your plan into action, you will lose more money than you will earn!
And people will add those function to the improvements forum, because they want it back!!!


Are you really willing to lose customers???
Do you really want to disappoint your customers???
Are you really ignoring your customers?
Are you really going to put this plan into action?
Are you really going to ignore the handicaped students???
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Kael » Mon Sep 26, 2011 1:53 am

I don't like ketchup on my hotdog^. And this is the longest post i have ever seen but i agree with every single thing said in it
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby monstertje3 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 7:29 am

banjerboef, i think you are a bit too harsh, if they code some more educational stuff in algodoo they can make a different version.
then for a small/medium price, you can sort of buy a educational package dlc or something. If you then want plots etc, you will have to buy the dlc thingy just like any other dlc in any other random game.

as obviously some people want plots, they can simply fall back to previous versions (1.8) and play it. Ofcourse could that be prevented by putting a really cool feature in 2.0 (like electricity)

oh and for your hotdog, i dont like ketchup :P i buy one without
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Banjerboef » Mon Sep 26, 2011 11:42 am

The Hot Dog was an example.
And my example was right:
When you buy a Hot Dog without ketchup, the seller listens to it's customer.
And when the seller does what you ask him, you might buy a Hot Dog from the same seller the next time you want a Hot Dog.

That was the point I was trying to make.
I don't care about if you want ketchup or not, just the theory.
And I gave another example (the processor example) with the same principle.


And the same system as Linux uses, the different packages with functions.
It isn't a bad idea.

But only do that for the teacher stuff, like smartboard support.

But also look at it from this side:
Games like the Sims 3 have expansion packs.
They are expencive, but do add a lot of things to the game.

If Algodoo also has expension packs.
They will be cheap, and add almost nothing to the game.

People don't want to pay extra for two functions!

On a car a extra feature is fine, and people are willing to pay extra for that feature.
But it isn't the same with games.


As I said, Phun could be the cheaper Algodoo.
Emil could have the normal Algodoo and a teacher edition.

That are 3 different versions, with different functions.
That is what you want, right?
Different products and different prices.


And for the downgrade to 1.8.
Why would someone downgrade Algodoo.

If you downgrade, you will get more bugs and you can't play newer scenes from Algobox.

So, you want to upgrade to newer Algodoo versions.
Because they have the previous bugs solved and new cool features (like thrusters that you don't find in 1.8).
Also you can play the newest scenes from Algobox with the newest version.

If a great creator uses the newest Algodoo and you are using a older version of Algodoo.
And you see a scene from him that you really want to play, you can't because you have an older version.

Downgrading is not an option!


And if you are willing to lose handicaped customers, go ahead put your idiotic plan into action.

Handicaped children have trouble with learning, most of them can't analyse real-time data.
They need graphs in order to understand things.

With the 'show velocity's' function I can say: "the bigger the arrow, the more pressure is on that point"
And handicaped children can understand that.
They can't understand the real-time data, they need visible data (not numbers).

You should be proud of the fact that your software can help these handicaped students learn!

And if you are putting your plan into action, you can't be proud of that anymore.
Instead you can be proud of the fact that you lost many handicaped customers and that you have taken away the features that helped them to learn.


Buying a package with the plot and show velocity's function isn't an option.
Because people don't spend extra money on extra functions if they don't have much value.

As I said before, they don't add much value.
That means you can't ask €5 for a expension package with these two functions.
And if you ask €0,50 for it, people won't buy it because they think that it should be a standard feature (because it is so cheap).


And what is the harm if they are in Algodoo.
It only adds a extra function in the object's menu and a extra tickbox in the color menu.

You will hardly notice the functions are there!
But the benefits of these functions are immense.

And if you don't need it, you simply don't use it.
But if you need it, it would be nice if they are there!


Many people have much benefit from these two simple functions!

I won't recommend Algodoo to anyone, if these functions are only available in the teacher edition.
Because it will be a waste of money.
Why pay for smartboard support, if you don't need it?

We learn:
10 percent of what we read;
20 percent of what we hear;
30 percent of what we both see and hear;
50 percent of what we discussed with others;
80 percent of what we experience personally;
95 percent of what we teach to someone else.

If you look at the difference, you will notice that you learn 20% more from what you see than from what you read!

For handicaped students this small difference, could mean a lot to them.
Also for little children it can make a lot of difference.

Why do you think people made television programmes like the Teletubbies?
Because children learn more from watching than from reading.

The same counts for adults.
You learn more from tv than from reading, because tv programmes are easier to remember.
The tv programmes can show you how something works or looks like, and thus is it easier to remember.
I personally learn more from Discovery Channel and National Geographic than from a book about the same subject.

Many people will recognize this theory when watching a quiz on television.
If you watched a tv programme about for example dogs
It will be easier for you to answer questions about dogs when you watched a programme about dogs, than when you have read a book about dogs.


The same theory can be applied to games like Algodoo.

Because if you are experiencing yourself how something works you can learn from that.
But if you are looking at the data about weight or pressure, it will be easier to understand this data when it is shown in a graph than when it is shown in numbers.

For Example:
If you are handicaped, you would be very happy if you get help with learning.
If you have trouble understanding what the numbers mean and you are able (thanks to Algodoo) to analyse a graph instead of numbers, you will be even more happy.

If you cannot analyse graphs anymore, you won't be happy and won't use Algodoo anymore.
Because it doesn't gives you the things you need.

Another example:
If you want to buy a new kitchen.
You won't buy the kitchen that doesn't have the things you want.
Instead you buy the kitchen that does have the things you want.

When someone tries to sell you the kitchen you don't want, you will leave and go to a different seller.

Here is another example:

People have to vote for a new president.
The results are:

80% of the people vote for Candidate 1
20% of the people vote for Candidate 2

If you are a person who analyses the results and presents them to the country, you cannot simply say that Candidate 2 has won! You can't, because you are presenting false results. And because it is your opinion, and not that from the people.

The same counts for Algodoo!
If there are more people who want those functions than people who don't want them.
It will be unfair to choose for the people who don't want those functions, because you think it is better!


If you don't listen to your customers they will go away, like with the Hot Dogs (here comes the Hot Dog example again).

If a Hot Dog seller puts Ketchup on your Hot Dog but you clearly said that you didn't want Ketchup, what are you going to do? You don't take the Hot Dog, you walk away and you buy your Hot Dog from a different seller.
Because this Hot Dog seller doesn't listen to it's customers.

The same counts for Algodoo!


These where examples all explaining the same thing:
If a seller doesn't have the products customers want, he won't sell anything.

This theory can be applied to anything, from hardware to software.
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby emilk » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:57 pm

Maurice: I hear you and we are exploring alternatives.

If we have two differrent versions, with one more expensive, it will have to have more features. Now you say the difference in features should absolutely not be plots and visualization, and you have argued strongly for why this is so - still I think this is in part a matter of opinion.

For instance, if the difference between the two versions would be the existence of ropes I'm sure there would be a lot of people claiming that ropes is an absolutely essential part of Algodoo, and cannot be excluded even from the cheap version. And the same goes for almost any feature - there simply is no pleasing everyone (except giving everything away for free - in case we won't afford more development).

I agree that the cheap version shouldn't be too handicaped - for instance I want scenes to be compatible between version - but at the same time, there has to be some difference to justify the price difference. And since the more advanced version is meant for schools, and that force visualization and plots where created by demand of our school customers - they where a natural choice.

Now you say they are essential to many advanced users - and you're probably right. But are they essential to all users? I doubt it. And maybe advanced users should have the advanced version, don't you think?

Anway, this was just meant as food for thought - as I said, we are rethinking the whole concept and will get back to you all shortly!
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby jonatan » Mon Sep 26, 2011 3:58 pm

You can find our official reply to this feedback:

viewtopic.php?f=24&t=4830

/Jonatan
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Banjerboef » Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:39 pm

Thank you for the fact that you are going to rethink the whole concept!

The biggest difference between the normal Algodoo and teacher edition would be the smartboard support, and I think we all agree with that.

Why not make Algodoo like it was before, with the different modes (simple, normal and advanced mode).
With this all users can adjust Algodoo to their wishes.
And everybody will be happy.

Thanks again for rethinking the concept!
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby TC42 » Mon Sep 26, 2011 9:02 pm

@Banjerboef- I'm just going to point out that your hot-dog example is mostly wrong, in this case. Algoryx nearly has a monopoly on 2D physics simulation. The nearest competitor that I've seen is physion, and comparing algodoo to physion is similar to comparing Photoshop CS5 to ... Paint. So in this case, people *can't* go to another vendor.

And, like Emil said earlier, maybe advanced users should use the advanced version. I will again liken to Photoshop. Advanced Photoshop users use CS5 or Elements 9. Less advanced-or new-users may use cheaper solutions, like GIMP.

Again, I will compare to Photoshop. When you pay for Photoshop, you get the main program with many features and a powerful editing engine. But maybe you want to convert your image into B&W. Photoshop is not natively very good at that, so you may buy a plug-in like Silver-Efex Pro that will allow Photoshop to work on black and white images. Same with algodoo. You buy the main engine, which has all of the main features and a very powerful simulator. But maybe you want graphs. So you buy a graphing plug-in. Same concept, except the prices are ~30x lower. You do realize that Algoryx is trying to make Algodoo more affordable for all of those who haven't bought it due to price, right?

Your asking for the awesome algoryx team to work backwards, undoing what they've just done, and you're telling them that they don't listen to their customers... if you look at the suggestions in both the old and new forums, probably ~20-30% of algodoo's functions are based on user feedback. Recently, due to user suggestions, scene.removeEntity was added, and that is new in this beta.

Anyway, that is my opinion, even if it sounds like a photoshop ad.

As for suggestions, what if you had a main simulator that was free, and could run all the newest scenes, but had the limitations of Phun-no lasers, no thrusters, and no rope tool (and no thyme?). Then, you could, for a small fee, add tools to it-ex, you could add the rope tool for $12, the thruster tool for $8, lasers for $10, and thyme access for $8. That way, if you think you will never need thruster, you don't have to pay for it. Or if you're a phundamentalist, you don't have to pay for thyme access, but you can still run scenes that use thrusters or thyme.

It may seem silly, but it's just an idea to consider…
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Banjerboef » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:39 am

The funny thing is though, I use Photoshop CS5 Extended while I am a complete newbie and don't know how most functions work. But I do have the newest Photoshop, because I know it is a great piece of software.

And because you nearly have a Monopoly in 2D simulation, you should give the customers what they want.
Like Adobe does.

And $12 for a rope tool is way too expencive.
Believe me people won't buy this, only the users whom really need those tools (like schools) will buy these.
In a nutshell, you will lose most of your home users and only have teachers left.

When someone buys Algodoo, he pays for everything in it.

But the engineering teacher on the 2.0 RC1 forum bought Algodoo expecting the plots to be there, because that's the reason why he bought Algodoo.
He paid the same price for less functions, that's not fair!


And if you can select what tools you want, why not make tickboxes to select the components you want when buying Algodoo.

No, I disagree!

Because as you said the main program can run scenes containing tools you don't have.
That means that you pay $8 for a stupid tool icon that enables you to use that tool, because the programming of the tool is already there.


That's just the same as the 'player' idea of Kilinich (sorry if I spelled it wrong).

People pay for the complete package, otherwise you could sell Algodoo for $2.
And sell the tools for $4 - $8.


People want the complete package and that is where they pay for.
It is easier to just buy a complete program for $...., than buying seperate components.


I agree that the Algodoo team listens to it's customers, but in this case it took a while and several long posts to convience them. Even while many people wanted those functions and posted a message before, it was after my long posts that the Algoryx team desided to rethink their concept.

And by the way this is what you said: "Your asking for the awesome algoryx team to work backwards, undoing what they've just done". Do you agree with the fact that they did remove the plots and force visualisation or not?
Because to me you sound like you don't want those functions.


And my Hot Dog example isn't wrong, because I was only trieng to explain the concept of 'giving what the customer wants' and I wasn't explaining the concept of the competition.
I also gave other examples, with different situations.

So, in this case you are wrong.
Because you didn't read my example correctly.

Here is my example again:

"When you buy a Hot Dog without ketchup, the seller listens to it's customer.
And when the seller does what you ask him, you might buy a Hot Dog from the same seller the next time you want a Hot Dog.

That was the point I was trying to make."

Did you read the "the seller listens to it's customer" part?
It isn't about the amount of competition, it's about the fact that the supplier (Algoryx) listens to it's customers like it does with other things.


Do you know the program called Nvidia PhysX (http://uk.geforce.com/hardware/technology/physx)?
It simulates physics like no other program (http://uk.geforce.com/hardware/technology/physx/videos).
The game Super Sonic Sled (SSS) is the most awesome game using this technology.
It is so enormously realistic!

So, your almost no other competition example is wrong, because there is.
The difference is, that this is 3D simulation and doesn't has the same functions.
But it does simulate physics like Algodoo does.

The game Crazy Machines 2 uses this technology too.

So, you can't really compare Algodoo with anything.
Not with Photoshop, not with Hot Dogs.
Because they where only examples illustrating the concept of listening to your customer.

Do you understand this?


And by the way, I said in my last post:
"Why not make Algodoo like it was before, with the different modes (simple, normal and advanced mode).
With this all users can adjust Algodoo to their wishes.
And everybody will be happy."

You pay for the full program, and the you can adjust it to your wishes.
Because I know that when you discovered how easy Algodoo works, you want more and more and more.
So, you also want more and more functions.

That's why the different modes are so easy.
You can set Algodoo to simple mode for little kids and to advanced mode for great creators.

You pay once for the full program, because I know that new users will soon discover that they want more and more.
That's also said on the side: "we know you will love it"

So, I think it is better to get these modes back and only focus on smartboard support and other teacher stuff as a difference between the two versions.
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby TC42 » Tue Sep 27, 2011 10:08 pm

I don't see why you are confused about my statement: "You're asking for the awesome algoryx team to work backwards, undoing what they've just done, and you're telling them that they don't listen to their customers..." My point is that undoing what you just perfected is a waste of time and money that could be spent further developing the product.

I will avoid commenting on the action of buying CS5 without any experience in Photoshop. I cannot comment on it without being rude.

Yes, I understand what you're saying. But ordering a hot-dog without ketchup is different from buying a program where you can go online and read up on all of the features that the latest release has and doesn't have. And you can revert to an older version if you want graphs--there are still some people who use 1.6.

I understand why you are comparing it with a hot-dog vendor. Unlike hot-dog vendors, Algoryx's customers cannot go elsewhere. Why does a company have any motivation to modify their product when they have no competition? If you have a monopoly, than you can do what ever you want, and your customers just have to deal with it; If you are the only hot-dog seller in the world, then people either have to make their own hot-dog, or deal with the hot-dogs provided. Your original metaphor, one might note, included the idea of competition--and I quote: "you walk away and you buy your hot-dog from a different seller"--until you changed it.

Now read the above paragraph again, taking time to absorb the main theme--companies do not have to change their product so that the consumer "might buy a [product] from the same seller next time [the consumer] wants a [product]" when they are the only company that produces that product. 3D physics is a different program. I didn't want 3D physics, so I bought algodoo. So algodoo does not have competition.

And why can't I compare photoshop with algodoo?
That was an example of plug-ins. NOT an example of listening to consumers. Derp.

You seem to not understand Algoryx's goal. They need a price differential, and need to either add to the teacher edition, or move features from the standard algodoo to the teacher edition. So maybe the best way to get graphs back is to give them a few suggestions as to what to add to the teacher edition.

Get the concept?
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby monstertje3 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:27 am

maybe a possible suggestion, the ability to show regular functions in a plot, like x^2 or sin(x). Then you can compare it somehow to something you already know.
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Banjerboef » Wed Sep 28, 2011 2:10 pm

I fully understand the concept of two different versions, and I fully agree with that!

But I agree only if the difference is something like smartboard support.
In other terms: difference in something that a normal user doesn't need and what a teacher does need.
In this case normal users do use plots and don't use smartboard support, but teachers use both.

I understand that you think that if I buy Photoshop CS5, I am stupid.
But I haven't paid the full price, because my school bought it and I only had to pay a small price for it.
So, I have it for educational stuff.

They my methaphor thing.
My old methaphor is still right, because it is part of the Hot Dog example.
When the seller doesn't do what you want, you go to a different seller (that's what normal humans do).
It doesn't matter if there is a different seller or not, it is about the fact that you go to a other seller.

In my Hot Dog example there are plenty of different sellers, but that doesn't count for Algodoo.
With Algodoo you can only go to an older version or Phun.
So, in this case people will use older versions of Algodoo or Phun, but they won't be that happy that they could be.

And you don't want that people are going to use older versions again, because they you could stop developing immiatly.
This results in the fact that developing newer versions is useless and a waste of time and money, because nobody buys it or even uses it.

And the fact that Algoryx has a monopoly position, doesn't mean they can do whatever they want and the customers have to deal with that. Sure they have the rights to do what they want, and it's true that the customers can't go to a different vendor.

But keep in mind that a company wants to sell as much of their products as possible.
This can only be accomplished by listening to the customers whishes, and change the products in the way they want it.
Because if a product contains what the customer wants/needs, they will buy it.

Even a company with a monopoly can lose customers.
For example Microsoft and Apple, they both can lose their customers to Linux/Ubunto (because that is a free OS).
So, they both need to keep changing their products to products that are attractive for customers.

Think about extra software like Media Centre in Windows, Linux doesn't have that.
So, the users whom need a piece of software that can organise their media will use Windows instead of Linux.
This is just an example and might vary per person.


And by the way I said: "you can't compare Algodoo with anything".
I meant with this that you can't compare it to other software.
I know Photoshop and Hot Dogs are used as examples to illustrate the theory of things, and not used to compare with Algodoo.

With "you can't compare Algodoo with anything", I meant to say (but maybe I wasn't clear enough) that Algodoo is a different product and very very hard to compare with anything.
You can compare it to Physion (as you said before), but that would be similar to comparing Photoshop to Paint.

So, what I am trieng to say: Algodoo is the only piece of software of it's kind and very hard to compare.
It is so hard to compare, that in fact you can't compare it with anything.


I like discussing things, but it always gives you new ideas and a different point of view.
But discussing with you, gives me the feeling that I am discussing with someone who is happy (and agrees) with the concept of the Algodoo team and the removal of the plots and force visualisation.
Correct me if I am wrong!

Just let me know what you think about the concept!
Instead of arguing (sorry if I made a grammar error) about wrong examples and wrong comparing.

Because it isn't clear to me (maybe unclear to others too) if you agree or disagree with the concept of the Algodoo team.

Also because you said: "My point is that undoing what you just perfected is a waste of time and money that could be spent further developing the product.", I got a little confused.
To me you are saying with this that you agree with removing the plots and force visualistation, and that you think it is okay to do so (because it is good for further development).

But removing something isn't making something perfect, especially in this case because those functions where working perfectly.

Don't forget that the reason why this functions where removed, was because the Algodoo team wanted two different versions.
I agree with the two versions thing, but I disagree with removing those two functions.
So, I was asking to put them back because I use them quite often and some other people do too.

Is this a problem to you?
Is it a problem that I ask to put them back?

As you said 20-30% of the functions in Algodoo are requested by the users of Algodoo.
You can see this too as a request!!!

Why is my request to put those two functions back a waste of money and time, while the other requests for new functions submitted by other users aren't?
Can you explain that to me?


And as for the new functions for the teacher edition (maybe if you have some ideas you can share them too, because it was your idea to give the Algodoo team these ideas for the teacher edition):

- Maybe they can have class interaction (multiple computers showing the same screen, and all students can draw and play at the same time. So, it will be like a multiplayer game)
- Scene export to the student's pc's (the scene the teacher had drawn as an example is transferred to the computers of the students, so you don't have to upload it first to a school network)
- Scenes can be opened directly from the computers of the students (so if a student made a great scene, it can be directly shared inside the school network and being opened by the teacher or other students. Maybe you could add two tickboxes at the save menu: "Teacher access" and "Teacher and Student access").
- Teachers can access their scenes on every computer (like a teacher log-in, so teachers can access their pre-made scenes on every computer).
- Display sharing (you can program Algodoo so that if you share your screen, every computer or a selected group of computers will display the same image as shown on your screen. This is like the class interaction idea, but without the ability to play at the same time. So, it is like a presentation: everybody can see the things you are talking about).

These are just some examples!
These are useful for teachers, but not really for home users (except for the multiplayer thing, that sounds fun even for home users).
Banjerboef
 

Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby monstertje3 » Wed Sep 28, 2011 7:17 pm

the sharing all depends on the network i think of the school, so it would be very custom (+ some schools cant support scene interchange, like mine (crashed pc every 2 min :/))
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Banjerboef » Thu Sep 29, 2011 11:46 am

I am talking about scene sharing from Algodoo itself.
Because for some schools it is too expencive to buy a server and to hire a IT-specialist.

A school network can also be very unreliable, that's why I think that Algodoo should do the job instead.
In this case by making the computer of a student/teacher a temporary server, that enables other students or teachers to exchange scenes.

That can be a clever alternative to the current school networks, because they are already slow and you don't want to slow it down even more with everybody downloading a scene from an external server.

And I said that they where just some ideas, so you have to disside for yourself if you like it or not.
And if you don't like it, you should give your own ideas.

But why not make a system similar to the PSP.
When you use multiplayer on the PSP, the PSP will create a temporary wireless network that other PSP's can join.
You can do the same with Algodoo!

If a teacher wants to share his scene with the class, you can program Algodoo so that the teacher is able to quickly create a temporary network (from inside Algodoo, so you don't have to switch back to Windows first) where his students can download the scene from.

This way the school network isn't slown down, especially if all the computers are eccuiped with wireless internet (which most laptops have). Because the data transmission is taking place in a different network created between a number of computers. This newly created network is seperated from the school network and thus doesn't slow the school network down.

This was just an idea.
If you disagree, you should give your own (better) ideas.


A little Off-topic:

I also had experience with bad school networks.

The one I worked with was slow, which resulted in a download time of 15 minutes for a simple one paged .pdf file.
I took 5 minutes before the printer recieved the file I wanted to print.
So, the teachers told us to only use the internet if we needed it.
This ment we couldn't listen to online radio, coulnd't read any online newspapers and we coulnd't watch YouTube.

File sharing was slow and very unreliable.
The wireless network cards in the desktop computers where even more unreliable then the school network, because they coulnd't even see or connect to the school network (while the wireless transmitter was only 2 metres away).

So, I know how problematic a school network can be and also know how frustrating they can be.
There are however some school networks that work properly, but they are very very rare!

Montertje3 are you Dutch?
I am asking this because "monstertje" is a Dutch word.
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby monstertje3 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:13 pm

yes i am dutch in, and using a single computer as a filehost, could cause loss of scenes ( host crashes ) or would be really slow, it would be easier to upload to algobox or remake the scene. (if algobox isn't an option, (bandwidth problems), lan-sharing just as bad)
(btw why such big posts? (annoying), and for a small wireless network, only psp's have such hardware built in, not cheap pc's)
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Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Banjerboef » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:07 am

@Monstertje3:
Now you are thinking wrong.
Normal computers (even cheap ones) can create temporary WiFi networks!

PSP's use the same network principle as normal computers, sending and receiving.
The only difference is that PSP's have the software to create a temporary network very easily and on Windows it is a bid harder (but still possible).

I tried this network sharing and it was fast, reliable and best of all it worked!
I tested it with as much computers as possible at the same time downloading a big file (a movie) to simulate multiple scene downloads at the same time. And it was fast, 700 MB was downloaded in 10 minutes with 4 computers downloading at the same time.

By the way, if you have a computer with two lan-ports, you can use one for surfing on the internet and the other for scene sharing. And don't tell me that doesn't work, because I tested this and it does work!

Also there are laptops on the marked that are build for home media, like my Acer Aspire 5520.
Some of them (including mine) have support for 2 wireless network adapters.
This means that, if I want, I can put a second wireless network adapter in my laptop.
These systems with support for two (wireless) network adapters are designed for network sharing,
in other words one adapter can be used for surfing on the internet and the other for streaming media.

So, if a school buys one laptop (for the teacher) with two wireless adapters, one adapter can be used for surfing on the internet and the other for scene sharing. This doesn't slow down anything (not even the scene sharing itself), because one adapter can be fully used for scene sharing only.

My idea is not that one computer becomes a host, but that every computer can temporarely be a host.
So, that if someone wants to share his scene, he can do that directly without using a server or by using the school network. Just click on a button in Algodoo and Algodoo will send the scene to the selected computers or put it open so that others can download it directly from his computer.

Simple!

And if you are afraid of losing your scene, just copy it to the school server!
It is as simple as that.

Or if Algodoo agrees with this:
Making a special log-in page on Algodoo.com for schools, so that the schools can upload and download their scenes from a seperated part of the site that is only accessable by the school and the students of that school.
But the down-side of this is that it requires a fast school network.

Or if Algodoo really wants to make different products:
If Algodoo can make a deal with a supplier of high-quality servers, Algodoo might be able to sell servers (designed for scene sharing) to schools that don't have a server yet or don't want that their existing server is being slowed down by the scene sharing.

This way Algodoo can offer a complete package for schools!
For example, one of the packages (like the starter package) can contain:
25x Algodoo licence; 1x Smartboard; and 1x server.

That is also what the Algodoo-team wanted, different products (with different prices) for home users and teachers.


The long posts where to ensure that I don't get misunderstood and to ensure that my ideas are explained properly! Also I have ideas that I want to share with the Algodoo-team and the rest of you on the forum (so you can add things to my ideas or give your opinion about them), and those ideas need to be explained properly.

Off-Topic:

A little Dutch for Monstertje3, because I am too lazy to translate this (if you want to understand what I'm saying, use a translator):

Daarnaast ben ik jouw geen verantwoording schuldig over waarom ik lange posts plaats!
Ze mogen dan wel irritant zijn, maar ze hebben een reden.

Ik gebruik nergens op het forum mijn echte naam en toch ik wordt op het forum herkent door Emil
("Maurice: I hear you and we are exploring alternatives")!

Waarom Emil mijn naam weet?
Omdat ik al vaker met Emil contact heb gehad over ideeën en verbeteringen, daarom kent hij mijn echte en forum naam!

Dus de lange posts met veel details hebben een reden, waarvan ik niet verplicht ben die jou te vertellen.


Sorry for the Dutch part!
I just had to write this in Dutch, so that Monstertje3 can understand me more easily!
If you want to know what I said to Monstertje3, feel free to use a translator to translate the Dutch part.
Be aware that some translators (like Google Translator) make grammar mistakes!
Banjerboef
 

Re: Algodoo 1.9.9.9b released!

Postby Someone Else » Fri Oct 07, 2011 4:14 pm

@monstertje3:

I believe KarateBrot once built a scene that will plot any math function you plug into it.
It may also be possible- IS possible, if anyone could be bothered to do it- to build another scene that can plot position vs time, so this could be easily derived to plot velocity vs time, acceleration vs time, jerk vs time, so-forth.

If these scenes use different variables, they could be combined into the same scene. Then, the object plot and the function plot could be plotted in the same space. Perhaps there would be some simulated knobs (sliders?) that would allow either plot to be scaled nonuniformly and independently of the other. In this way, an object plot could be easily compared to a known plot.

Heck, I might even do this sometime. I have already put some thought into building a parametric version of KarateBrot's scene, probably adding some more stuff, so it would be like the aforementioned scene, but better.
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